Commisions and renting space costs

[caterina]

Hello.
I am looking into selling locally (West London, UK) in the future. There are a few options local to me and I am trying to understand if the range of prices they are asking for renting of the exposition space is reasonable and doable for a felter.

A couple are art galleries: one is privately owned and the other is a space rented by an artists' collective. The artists' collective asks for rent of space but not for commisions, and you get to man (or woman) the gallery at turns.

A couple are shops selling local and non-local textiles jewellery, prints, cards, soaps, vases, and so on. They both ask for a renting fee plus commissions on sold items, but one is a collective and I guess less expensive (and, again, one gets to man/woman the shop taking turns), the other is owned and seems fully booked until the end of times :-) also, this last one asked me for 20pounds per week plus 5% commision on sold, for the smallest shelf (only suitable for jewellery), 4 weeks paid in advance, and the lady said there is a waiting list until well into next year. It is a very successful and establushed shop, whereas the collective shop is very new. The nice lady manning the collective shop today said that it is all working out for her, fees and commision and costs, but that does not mean much.

So, please, UK felters, what kind of commisions or rents you usually pay, and what would be a reasonable range?
Thank you in advance for sharing your experience.

[MTRuth]

I'm not in the UK but I owned a fine craft gallery for 20+ years. I did consignment with 60% to the artist and 40% to the gallery. This is pretty standard in the US. You need to research this carefully. Find out if they have a formal signed agreement, what the percentages are, how often you would be required to work, talk to other artists involved. Not just the ones that you first meet. I have never heard of paying in advance for "renting" space. Also, make sure that the shop doesn't move things around to other areas once things have been sold if you are "renting" a specific area. What happens if your items are stolen or disappear? Is the shop liable? How long are you involved (especially if things aren't selling)? Do you really want to work retail? You want to have a signed agreement that has all of these issues discussed in writing. I'm sure there are more things that I haven't mentioned but making sure you know all the ins and outs before you decide is very important.

[lyn]

Sorry Caterina - we only have experience of craft shows and a gallery.

Annie and I have sold through a small UK gallery and it was the same as Ruth said above - 60/40. It sounds steep but the gallery has a lot of overheads and will sell for you while you continue to make.

[caterina]

Jul 14, 2021 17:24:51 GMT MTRuth said:

I'm not in the UK but I owned a fine craft gallery for 20+ years. I did consignment with 60% to the artist and 40% to the gallery. This is pretty standard in the US. You need to research this carefully. Find out if they have a formal signed agreement, what the percentages are, how often you would be required to work, talk to other artists involved. Not just the ones that you first meet. I have never heard of paying in advance for "renting" space. Also, make sure that the shop doesn't move things around to other areas once things have been sold if you are "renting" a specific area. What happens if your items are stolen or disappear? Is the shop liable? How long are you involved (especially if things aren't selling)? Do you really want to work retail? You want to have a signed agreement that has all of these issues discussed in writing. I'm sure there are more things that I haven't mentioned but making sure you know all the ins and outs before you decide is very important.

Thank you, Ruth, for your insight.
You are right, they are very important details and I should understand all of those and more before signing anything!

Clearly, in my local area shops and gallery spaces work differently as to commission and fixed fees to US. I am wondering if it is just in my Borough or all over England.

Of course, having only the commission on sold would split the risk in a more balanced way on both the artist and the gallery, whereas a fixed fee (as renting space) means that the risk of failure will rest exclusively with the artist, who will have to pay for the space whatever happens. Although, having a fixed renting fee and no commission, as in the collective gallery, means that the successful artist will get to keep all her gains. Bad luck for the unsuccessful one, though.
In this case, it would be the artist who is very pressed to change her exposition, to see if she can cover the fixed fees, while the gallery can just stand back and watch, getting its fees in any case.

Well, I have a lot to think on. It puts a lot into perspective.

Thanks.
Caterina

[caterina]

Jul 14, 2021 19:59:57 GMT lyn said:

Sorry Caterina - we only have experience of craft shows and a gallery.

Annie and I have sold through a small UK gallery and it was the same as Ruth said above - 60/40. It sounds steep but the gallery has a lot of overheads and will sell for you while you continue to make.

Thank you for your experience, Lyn.

Quite apart from the Covid situation, I feel that I am not in a position to do craft fairs now. For one, I don't have a car, and I do not plan to have one in the near future: London, zone 3, traffic is crazy. Also, I think I would not have the time, I have my kids, and my (other) job.

So, it is local shops and galleries, or online selling. I liked the idea of selling local, to start, and see how it goes.
We have quite a push for local crafts and local artists from the shops and galleries that I mentioned, and all of them seemed very surprised and curious about felt art and craft: there is nothing really like it sold locally (apart from some felted animals made in other parts of the world and sold cheaply here), and I could see that it sounded new and appealing to them.

[Ann @ frabjous fabrica]

Galleries in my area (Dorset) seem to charge commission of 35 - 40%.  I haven't come across any that want you to pay for space, although there is one collective gallery and you have to belong to the group to exhibit there I think.  I suspect that they each contribute to outgoings and such, which is reasonable as their gallery is in Shaftesbury so they do get quite a few visitors in the "season" but they are open all year round.  We are a bit off the tourist track where I am, although we do get a few because of our old watermilll.  (It was actually on TV all over the world during the 1st lockdown as they were milling flour for local bakers when their usual supply disappeared so you may have seen it.)
I agree with Ruth, that you need to make sure that all your Is are dotted and your Ts crossed before you go ahead with any of your local places.  You may find that some of them are a bit too laid back and don't bother with anything in writing.  If that happens I suggest that you put down in writing what you understand the arrangement to be and you give them a copy of it.  That way you'll have a legal agreement with them even if it's not a formal one.
Hope it goes well for you.

[Shepherdess]

if you are putting things on commission you need to be clear about how your textiles will be treated. I have heard many tales of textiles being used as display items for other things. If it's on commission you need to find out how long they expect to keep your items before they return them. And if you can swap them out. A friend did that with her closest gallery, she would swap out scarves depending on the season. Ruth is right about stolen or damaged items. You want to know who is taking the loss or how it's split.

Joining a local artist or textile group may be a good way to find out what goes on locally

.

[caterina]

Thank you to both of you, Ann and Ann.
All of those are very good points to keep in mind, and I am intetested in your experiences.
I did not get the impression that there is much felting or textile art and craft going on near me, apart from a lace making group which I used to admire in some local exposition. I will look around a bit more.

How bizzarre that the only place in UK where there is this space renting fee thing instead of commissions seems to be in my area! I wonder if it is London or just my Borough or maybe just those few galleries and shops here around. It makes you think.

[lindsay]

Hi Caterina. Difficult to know where to start with this one. I’ve come across lots of different selling and renting arrangements. Ruth, Lynn, Ann & Ann have all made really good points. My gut feeling is for you to think through what you have to sell, where your work seems to sit comfortably, how much financial risk you can afford, how much time you can spend (manning / womaning) and then dip your toes gently in the water. I’ve paid for a wall space in a gallery (with no commission), sell through paid exhibition space - both group and solo - and through a gallery shop that just charges 25% commission on sales. They all have their own pros and cons and can also each vary from one occasion to another.

[caterina]

Jul 23, 2021 20:53:07 GMT lindsay said:

Hi Caterina. Difficult to know where to start with this one. I’ve come across lots of different selling and renting arrangements. Ruth, Lynn, Ann & Ann have all made really good points. My gut feeling is for you to think through what you have to sell, where your work seems to sit comfortably, how much financial risk you can afford, how much time you can spend (manning / womaning) and then dip your toes gently in the water. I’ve paid for a wall space in a gallery (with no commission), sell through paid exhibition space - both group and solo - and through a gallery shop that just charges 25% commission on sales. They all have their own pros and cons and can also each vary from one occasion to another.

Thank you, Lindsay.
Very interesting that you have come across such different deals, and you have a good point there: different products or different situations call for different settings and deals. I need to think about this thoroughly.
Caterina

[felicity]

Hi Caterina! I live in York UK and have tried all the options above and more !
- shops and small galleries. Commissions vary from as little as 25% to as high as 45%. Obviously low commission means slow turnout and rare sales and the other way around - good sales and high commission.
- art/craft collectives. I had to pay rent, commission on sales and to man the shop - all three of them. This option works well for those who can produce a lot of identical/similar products. I am not selling with them any more.
- online sale. I run ETSY shop for about 6 years and it worked well for me but with endless lockdowns, shipping delays, postal expenses and now Brexit - it's dormant at the moment.
- art/craft events/shows. This is what I am focused on at the moment. A few events in a year with a variety of locations and audience. It allows me to try different things and see where public interest is and then work from there. And I feel more in control this way.
I agree with the opinions above that you need to try everything before you find what works for you.

[caterina]

Jul 27, 2021 8:29:20 GMT felicity said:

Hi Caterina! I live in York UK and have tried all the options above and more !
- shops and small galleries. Commissions vary from as little as 25% to as high as 45%. Obviously low commission means slow turnout and rare sales and the other way around - good sales and high commission.
- art/craft collectives. I had to pay rent, commission on sales and to man the shop - all three of them. This option works well for those who can produce a lot of identical/similar products. I am not selling with them any more.
- online sale. I run ETSY shop for about 6 years and it worked well for me but with endless lockdowns, shipping delays, postal expenses and now Brexit - it's dormant at the moment.
- art/craft events/shows. This is what I am focused on at the moment. A few events in a year with a variety of locations and audience. It allows me to try different things and see where public interest is and then work from there. And I feel more in control this way.
I agree with the opinions above that you need to try everything before you find what works for you.

Hi, Felicity.
Thank you for sharing your varied experience: it sounds like I will have lots to try before deciding. Very interesting what you say about low commisions and low turn around: I wonder if it always is like that, particularly because one of the shops had very low commission (5%) on top of renting fees, so I wonder if that would mean extra low turn around as well.

Thanks!
Caterina

[felicity]

If you meant art cooperatives or shops where you rent a shelf or wall space, it varies very much. Low commission may mean high rent or long hours to work in a shop or slow sales in general. Usually when considering such options I try to calculate general commission percentage - see the example:
say, rent is £20, sale commission 10%. If your sales are around £200 monthly, the expenses are 20% approx. which is very good from my point of view. But if you are doing hours you need to count this as well and it's very personal, depending on how busy you are, how far is the shop, family commitments etc. The trick is to find what suits you best. Usually rented space is small or not very suitable for exhibiting textile pieces especially if you want to display a variety. Also often you sign a contract for a few months and can't withdraw even if sales are poor. Check this before sign. There are very quiet periods (depends on location) but you still have to pay rent. My experience with such arrangement (rent+commission+hours) was not good eventually but I met a lot of nice people and made a few friends. If there is no fixed term in contract it's easy to try and see. Time from September onwards is the best.

[caterina]

Jul 27, 2021 10:59:16 GMT felicity said:

If you meant art cooperatives or shops where you rent a shelf or wall space, it varies very much. Low commission may mean high rent or long hours to work in a shop or slow sales in general. Usually when considering such options I try to calculate general commission percentage - see the example:
say, rent is £20, sale commission 10%. If your sales are around £200 monthly, the expenses are 20% approx. which is very good from my point of view. But if you are doing hours you need to count this as well and it's very personal, depending on how busy you are, how far is the shop, family commitments etc. The trick is to find what suits you best. Usually rented space is small or not very suitable for exhibiting textile pieces especially if you want to display a variety. Also often you sign a contract for a few months and can't withdraw even if sales are poor. Check this before sign. There are very quiet periods (depends on location) but you still have to pay rent. My experience with such arrangement (rent+commission+hours) was not good eventually but I met a lot of nice people and made a few friends. If there is no fixed term in contract it's easy to try and see. Time from September onwards is the best.

Thank you.
Your example is very useful to understand it better.
Caterina