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Post by lyn on Dec 20, 2014 22:06:56 GMT
Thank you Teri. So emailing pdf tutorials is ok. What a pain though. Our rosiepink "download button" is not big enough to say: 'please press the button to buy now but not if you live in mainland Europe - UK is ok - because you'll have to email us and we'll have to calculate your tax and invoice you especially via paypal then wait for your payment then email you the pdf'.
What a joke.
So how do we continue to sell on Etsy? Still no news from there. I've just emailed Etsy ... again.
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Post by Shepherdess on Dec 21, 2014 1:16:05 GMT
At least its a way to do it. could you make 2 buttons, one for the EU(you email it then you don't have to calculate tax. ) and one for everyone else that is a download.
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Post by lyn on Dec 21, 2014 10:24:25 GMT
Good idea Ann.
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Post by zed on Dec 21, 2014 10:29:40 GMT
Thanks for that Teri Lyn, if you're going to email the PDF to those in the EU, you don't have to add tax, because then it's a personal service. I'm going to do a post on my blog telling people that I won't be adding tax, and warning EU businesses not to try to claim any portion back as VAT. I'm not adding $4 on for everyone across the world just in case 2 or 3 people in Europe might buy it. I'll add the info to the e-book page too, and tell people in the EU that they can complete the process as per usual, but that when I receive payment, I will personally email them the (or a) PDF file. The automated one is just a back up I suppose. It's a pain having to check every day, but it's either that or register for Vat, charge EU people more, and risk losing a few sales or charge everyone more and risk losing a load of sales. Ann, there are 27 other EU countries, all with different tax rates, some reduced for books, some not. I honestly don't see how this is enforceable. What will they do to people in Canada, fine them? Will they fine me? I don't have any money, so will they put me in prison for the odd £2.50 non paid VAT here and there?
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Post by Teri Berry on Dec 21, 2014 14:37:40 GMT
So how do we continue to sell on Etsy? Still no news from there. I've just emailed Etsy ... again. It is bonkers isn't it, only a Eurocrat could think this would be a workable system. As for Etsy, I plan to avoid their automatic download system and add a note in the description explaining that new VAT rules mean I have to email the PDF to them and this will happen within 24 hours of receiving payment. I think we will be waiting a long time for Etsy to pull their finger out and offer some guidance.
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Post by Teri Berry on Dec 21, 2014 14:45:22 GMT
I honestly don't see how this is enforceable. What will they do to people in Canada, fine them? Will they fine me? I don't have any money, so will they put me in prison for the odd £2.50 non paid VAT here and there? Unfortunately I wouldn't put it past them - they will slap a huge fine on you and then when you can't pay it find some other way of penalising you. As I found out to my cost a few years back, not knowing their rules is no defence, they tried to charge me a £300 fine for not informing them within their 3 month timeframe of a possible capital gain after my mother died, the insanity of the situation is that she did not leave enough assets for any of her beneficiaries to be liable for CGT, so HMRC were trying to fine me for not telling them about tax I didn't owe! They are all insane. Don't fall into the trap of thinking they will consider your situation humanely or with any common sense
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Post by lyn on Dec 22, 2014 10:10:33 GMT
Yes Teri, Etsy really are dragging their heels.
I've just received this in response to my latest email to Etsy:
"Hi Annie and Lyn,
Thanks for writing back to me about this.
I totally understand that you would like to receive some clarity on this matter. Unfortunately, we don't have any info to share at this moment, but I would encourage you to keep a close eye on our announcement pages. My colleagues from our policy and tax teams are working hard on this, and will certainly provide our members with a solution on how to proceed before this VAT law will be launched. They will publish this directly on our public pages, so that it's viewable for everyone concerned.
As mentioned before, here are the links to these pages: --https://www.etsy.com/blog/news/ --https://www.etsy.com/teams/7716/announcements
Again, I'm very sorry about the inconvenience this has caused. If there's anything else I can do to help in the meantime, please don't hesitate to contact me."
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Post by zed on Dec 22, 2014 12:44:20 GMT
I honestly believe it is indirect discrimination, especially against people with disabilities. Having an automated system means people who can't constantly check emails can still offer a good service to people wanting their product and can compete on a level playing field. This new rule means we can't. People will get fed up if the item isn't delivered straight away and cancel the order, request a refund, tell others not to bother.
Personally I've found people to be very understanding on the few occasions where I've had emails I haven't been well enough to get to for a few days, but only after I've explained. But people do not like to wait and if an email isn't answered that first day, there'll be another and another, and quite often another in the next day or two wondering why you aren't replying. Luckily there aren't problems for me often (it's usually internet connectivity problems interrupting downloads or apple devices not have pdf readers) but that's because I don't personally have to oversee anything.
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Post by Shepherdess on Dec 22, 2014 13:54:59 GMT
Why are the biggest companies the ones that have the worst service? iPhones etc. are more expensive but lack some basic things you would expect and Microsoft is just as bad. They have removed video players from the system because no one watches DVDs anymore, everyone streams. I watch them.
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Post by Teri Berry on Dec 22, 2014 18:58:52 GMT
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Post by zed on Dec 23, 2014 9:35:58 GMT
I just thought about World of Wool, too this morning. Have you contacted them, Lyn? I forgot I had my book on there, or maybe they took it down.
I suppose I'll have to alter etsy listings too, so no one tries to claim back VAT I haven't added.
I don't know how etsy can read all the stuff on it and say they aren't responsible. I've seen forums encouraging web designers/coders etc to get in on this and make systems easy for people. Etsy will lose out, because people will move to sites which can handle this mess.
I suppose I'll shelve any plans for selling stuff in 2016.
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Post by lyn on Dec 23, 2014 10:04:39 GMT
Hello Teri - thanks for the Etsy update. I read all the comments underneath it and found this one interesting:
HMRC in the UK says the following in their documentation: "If you supply e-services to consumers through an internet portal, gateway or marketplace, you need to determine whether you are making the supply to the consumer or to the platform operator. If the platform operator identifies you as the seller but sets the general terms and conditions, or authorises payment, or handles delivery/download of the digital service, the platform is considered to be supplying the consumer. They are therefore responsible for accounting for the VAT payment that is charged to the consumer." This clearly shows Etsy's responsibility.
So for a while the only answer is mailing pdfs to Europe ... until... as from 2016 even emailed out items will fall under the new ruling.
Am I permitted to rant? Yes? EUROCRATS WILL KILL ALL MICRO-BUSINESSES !
Zed - your pdf is still on WofW. Thanks for the reminder - I hadn't given WofW a thought with regard to the digital download - I'll send an email.
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Post by zed on Dec 23, 2014 11:08:51 GMT
It makes me so furious, I think I'm incapable of ranting.
How many of us who are housebound the majority of the time and have no other options of getting a job, thought we were given a life line with new technology and the ability to use our skills to try to generate an income? There have to be exemptions, you cannot have a blanket rule when it discriminates.
We're marginalised enough as it is by right wing inbreds calling us scroungers; humiliated and victimised by ATOS and the benefits system, guilty of fakery until we prove otherwise, and if we don't prove it to their satisfaction, left alone to fend for ourselves. So now even this is being taken away, the last shred of dignity some of us have.
Thanks EU.
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Post by Teri Berry on Dec 23, 2014 20:17:07 GMT
A very interesting post that has just popped up on Facebook:
I had an email today from HMRC. I asked them specifically about Etsy. They said they had looked at the site and believe them to be responsible for VAT, and that they don't expect me have to register and account for VAT. I am taking this as enough to keep trading there without dealing with EUVAT.
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Post by lyn on Dec 23, 2014 22:14:25 GMT
Whoa Teri - that person is saying that the info is straight from the horse's mouth. I really hope it's right.
I've just sent an email to HMRC (via the HMRC website) to see if I get the same reply.
I'm getting giddy reading as much as I can about all this. Apparently this law was formed 6 years ago, and 1st January 2015 was decided as the date of implementation so that everyone had plenty of time to get ready. Really? So how come us micro-businesses have only just found out about it?
I totally agree with the sentiment "Why should I be an unpaid collector of taxes for another country?" which is what the law amounts to.
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